Author Topic: Mengapa Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa Tidak Menggunakan Salib dalam Ibadat?  (Read 16333 times)

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May 10, 2012, 08:57:45 PM
Reply #110
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Bro,

Maaf kayaknya penalarannya sulit diterima deh, karena tidak ada di Alkitab. Kemudian kalau mengganti nama Yehuwa menjadi TUHAN, itu yang salah bro, karena nama kan tidak boleh diganti. Spt nama bro Bruce, itu kan nama pribadi, tidak boleh diganti, coba bayangkan kalau bro mengarang suatu buku, yang menuliskan nama bro disana sebanyak 7000 kali, kemudian ada yang mengganti nama Bruce itu dengan "Tuan", atau "Orang itu"
kira-kira bagaimana perasaan bro, kalau nama pribadi bro sendiri diganti secara sepihak seperti itu.

Lagipula meskipun nama Yehuwa dituliskan dengan empat huruf mati "YHWH" bukan berarti itu tidak bisa di sebutkan, karena nama YESUS juga tidak ada yang tahu pasti penyebutannya , apakah Yesyua atau mungkin Yehosyua dalam bahasa ibrani. Tapi sebagaimana nama YESUS dapat kita sebutkan dengan bahasa kita masing2 demikian juga dengan nama Bapak nya bro YHWH, itu bisa kita sebutkan juga Yehuwa, atau Jehovah dalam bahasa Inggris

Musa sudah di beritahu bro, kan tadi di Keluaran 3:15 dikatakan "Yehuwa.... itulah sebutanku turun-temurun", dan YESUS juga di Yohanes 17:26 mengaku kepada bapaknya kalau dia sudah memberitahukan NAMAMU kepada mereka, berarti pasti dia sudah di beritahukan.

Salam


Salam

Anda bisa baca sendiri di Alkitab brur.

Kel 3:14    Firman Allah kepada Musa: "AKU ADALAH AKU." Lagi firman-Nya: "Beginilah kaukatakan kepada orang Israel itu: AKULAH AKU telah mengutus aku kepadamu."
Kel 3:15    Selanjutnya berfirmanlah Allah kepada Musa: "Beginilah kaukatakan kepada orang Israel: TUHAN, Allah nenek moyangmu, Allah Abraham, Allah Ishak dan Allah Yakub, telah mengutus aku kepadamu: itulah nama-Ku untuk selama-lamanya dan itulah sebutan-Ku turun-temurun

Ex 3:14    God said to Moses: I AM WHO AM. He said: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: HE WHO IS, hath sent me to you.
Ex 3:15    And God said again to Moses: Thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: The Lord God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me to you: This is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Ex 3:14    dixit Deus ad Mosen ego sum qui sum ait sic dices filiis Israhel qui est misit me ad vos
Ex 3:15    dixitque iterum Deus ad Mosen haec dices filiis Israhel Dominus Deus patrum vestrorum Deus Abraham Deus Isaac et Deus Iacob misit me ad vos hoc nomen mihi est in aeternum et hoc memoriale meum in generationem et generatione

Ex 3:14    kai eipen o qeoV proV mwushn egw eimi o wn kai eipen outwV ereiV toiV uioiV israhl o wn apestalken me proV umaV
Ex 3:15    kai eipen o qeoV palin proV mwushn outwV ereiV toiV uioiV israhl kurioV o qeoV twn paterwn umwn qeoV abraam kai qeoV isaak kai qeoV iakwb apestalken me proV umaV touto mou estin onoma aiwnion kai mnhmosunon genewn geneaiV



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May 10, 2012, 08:58:19 PM
Reply #111
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Aduh, brur, jangan berdasarkan itu deh. Kita berdasarkan fakta saja ya.

Tahukah anda kapan agama Islam berawal? Nah umat Islam mengatakan sejak Adam, mantap kan?
Begitu juga Protestanism, berawal sejak MArtin Luther Protes dengan memasang 95 theses di pintu gereja, itu sekitar th 1517. Tetapi ada saja yang berkata sudah sejak JESUS mengajar, bahkan sejak Adam.
Nah, sekarang SSY mengklaim sudah sejak jaman nabi Yesaya. Jaman nabi Yesaya yang ada adalah ajaran Yahudi, brur, Kristen pun belum ada, apalagi SSY.

Kita bicara fakta saja deh :

In 1870, Charles Taze Russell and others formed an independent group in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania to study the Bible.[21][22] During the course of his ministry Russell disputed many of the creeds, doctrines, and traditions of mainstream Christianity including immortality of the soul, hellfire, predestination, the fleshly return of JESUS CHRIST, the Trinity, and the burning up of the world.[23] In 1876 Russell met Nelson H. Barbour and later that year they jointly produced the book Three Worlds, which combined restitutionist views with time prophecy. In the book they taught that God's dealings with mankind were divided dispensationally, each ending with a "harvest", that CHRIST had returned as an invisible spirit being in 1874[24] inaugurating the "harvest of the Gospel age", and that 1914 would mark the end of a 2520-year period called "the Gentile Times".[25] Beginning in 1878 they jointly edited a religious journal, Herald of the Morning. In June 1879 the two split over doctrinal differences and in July Russell began publishing the magazine Zion's Watch Tower and Herald of CHRIST's Presence,[26] stating that its purpose was to demonstrate the world was in "the last days" and that a new age of earthly and human restitution under the invisible reign of CHRIST was imminent.[27] As early as 1876, Russell taught that "the Gentile Times" would end in October 1914, at which time world society would be replaced by the full establishment of God's kingdom on earth.[28][29][30]

From 1879 Watch Tower supporters gathered as autonomous congregations to study the Bible topically. Thirty congregations had been founded, and during 1879 and 1880 Russell visited each to teach the pattern of meetings he recommended.[31] As congregations continued to form during Russell's ministry they each remained self-administrative, functioning under the congregationalist style of church governance.[32][33] In 1881 he founded Zion's Watch Tower Tract Society and in 1884 incorporated it as a non-profit business to distribute tracts and Bibles.[34][35][36] By about 1900 Russell had organized thousands of part- and full-time colporteurs,[37] and was appointing foreign missionaries and establishing branch offices. By the 1910s, Russell's organization was maintaining nearly a hundred "pilgrims", or traveling preachers.[38] Russell engaged in significant global publishing efforts during his ministry[39][40][41] and had become the most distributed Christian author in America by 1912.[41][42]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses


Iya memang secara organisasi Saksi-Saksi Yehuwa jaman modern muncul sekitar tahun 1800-an, tapi tentu tidak selalu berarti yang muncul belakangan tidak benar bro, sekarang bukan masalah tahun berapa muncul nya bro,  yang jadi masalah kan apakah suatu ajaran itu berpaut pada Alkitab atau tidak. Kalau muncul lebih dulu tapi misalnya menghapus nama Allah, mengganti nya dengan gelar2 , bukannya itu juga salah bro.

Kalau Saksi Yehuwa itu kan maksudnya yang bersaksi tentang Yehuwa, ya tentu sudah ada sejak jaman para nabi israel, karena kan Yehuwa sendiri yang menyatakan "Kamulah Saksi-Saksi ku" Yesaya 43:10-13. Jadi sah2 saja mengatakan demikian kalau memang ada dasarnya dari Alkitab. Kalau muslim atau protestan mengatakan demikian mereka dasarnya darimana bro.

Karena kalau kita tanya 1000 orang masing2 punya kebenaran sendiri, tapi kalau dari Alkitab kan kita ada dasar yang jelas

Salam


May 10, 2012, 09:00:06 PM
Reply #112
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  • aman dalam perlindungan Tuhan
menjadi seseorang yang selalu hidup dengan hati nurani yang murni di hadapan Tuhan dan manusia.
selalu jujur meski kadang jujur itu menyakiti yang lain. Yang penting Tuhan ga sakit.
May 10, 2012, 09:10:33 PM
Reply #113
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@yesaya

Brur, posting reply saya sudah di delete oleh mod. Jadi kita bicara masalah salib saja deh. Sayang sekali anda tidak bisa post untuk diskusi di thread yang membicarakan nama Allah.

But, it;s ok, kita bicara salib dulu jika anda berminat.

Salam
Menghujat sangat mudah, terlebih lagi jika tanpa bukti.
Melakukan sebaik seperti yang dihujat, jauh lebih sulit.
May 10, 2012, 09:16:47 PM
Reply #114
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@yesaya

Brur, posting reply saya sudah di delete oleh mod. Jadi kita bicara masalah salib saja deh. Sayang sekali anda tidak bisa post untuk diskusi di thread yang membicarakan nama Allah.

But, it;s ok, kita bicara salib dulu jika anda berminat.

Salam

Oh maaf kalau begitu nanti saya posting saja di pembahasan tentang nama Allah.

Mengenai salib memang sudah banyak dijelaskan oleh Megi, yang adalah saudara seiman kami juga.

Nanti kalau bro atau sis ada yang mau ditanyakan bisa saya tambahkan lagi.

Saya senang bisa berdiskusi dengan siapa saja, namun saya senang kalau kita menggunakan Alkitab dalam diskusi kita.

Selain tentunya dari sejarah dan fakta dari Ensiklopedi.

Salam

May 10, 2012, 09:53:47 PM
Reply #115
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Oh maaf kalau begitu nanti saya posting saja di pembahasan tentang nama Allah.

Mengenai salib memang sudah banyak dijelaskan oleh Megi, yang adalah saudara seiman kami juga.

Nanti kalau bro atau sis ada yang mau ditanyakan bisa saya tambahkan lagi.

Saya senang bisa berdiskusi dengan siapa saja, namun saya senang kalau kita menggunakan Alkitab dalam diskusi kita.

Selain tentunya dari sejarah dan fakta dari Ensiklopedi.

Salam



Pengertian kata Yunani "Stauros" yang biasa di terjemahkan salib dalam Alkitab LAI (diambil dari wikipedia)

"Stauros" interpreted as stake only Crucifixion on a stake,

Anglican theologian E. W. Bullinger, in The Companion Bible (which was completed and published in 1922,[3] nine years after his 1913 death), was emphatic in his belief that stauros never meant two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, "but always of one piece alone ... There is nothing [of the word stauros] in the Greek of the N.T. even to imply two pieces of timber." Bullinger wrote that in the catacombs of Rome CHRIST was never represented there as "hanging on a cross" and that the cross was a pagan symbol of life (the ankh) in Egyptian churches that was borrowed by the Christians. He cited a letter from English Dean John William Burgon, who questioned whether a cross occurred on any Christian monument of the first four centuries and wrote: "The 'invention' of it in pre-Christian times, and the 'invention' of its use in later times, are truths of which we need to be reminded in the present day. The evidence is thus complete, that the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, and not on two pieces of timber placed in any manner."[4]

Plymouth Brethren preacher W. E. Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words also states that the primary meaning of stauros was an upright pale or stake on which malefactors were nailed for execution. Vine said the shape of the ecclesiastical form of two-beamed cross had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (taking on the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in Chaldea and nearby lands, including Egypt. He said third century churches, which by then had departed from certain doctrines of the Christian faith, accepted pagans into the faith in order to increase their prestige and allowed them to retain their pagan signs and symbols. "Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the 'cross' of CHRIST."[5]
In his 1871 study of the history of the cross, Episcopal preacher Henry Dana Ward similarly accepted as the only form of the gibbet on which JESUS died "a pale, a strong stake, a wooden post",[6]. James B. Torrance in the article "Cross" in the New Bible Dictionary writes that the Greek word for "cross" (stauros; verb stauroō; Lat. crux, crucifigo, "I fasten to a cross") means primarily an upright stake or beam, but also allows the construction that JESUS and Simon of Cyrene carried a patibulum to Golgotha.[7][8]


Crucifixion on a stake, Illustration in Justus Lipsius' De cruce 1595


Torture stake, a simple wooden torture stake. Image by Justus Lipsius.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 10:00:13 PM by yesayanorman »
May 10, 2012, 10:03:25 PM
Reply #116
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Mat 27:40    mereka berkata: "Hai Engkau yang mau merubuhkan Bait Suci dan mau membangunnya kembali dalam tiga hari, selamatkanlah diri-Mu jikalau Engkau Anak Allah, turunlah dari salib itu!"

Mt 27:40    kai legonteV o kataluwn ton naon kai en trisin hmeraiV oikodomwn swson seauton ei uioV ei tou qeou katabhqi apo tou staurou

καὶ λέγοντες, Ὁ καταλύων τὸν ναὸν καὶ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις οἰκοδομῶν, σῶσον σεαυτόν, εἰ υἱὸς εἶ τοῦ θεοῦ, [καὶ] κατάβηθι ἀπὸ τοῦ σταυροῦ.

σταυρός,n  \{stow-ros'}
1) a cross  1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious  punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the  Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the  time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals,  particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and  abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces,  at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and  peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves  1b) the crucifixion which Christ underwent  2 an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or  palisades
Menghujat sangat mudah, terlebih lagi jika tanpa bukti.
Melakukan sebaik seperti yang dihujat, jauh lebih sulit.
May 10, 2012, 10:18:29 PM
Reply #117
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Shape of gibbet

Whereas most Christians believe the gibbet on which Jesus was executed was the traditional two-beamed cross, debate exists regarding the view that a single upright stake was used. The Greek and Latin words used in the earliest Christian writings are ambiguous. The Koine Greek terms used in the New Testament are stauros (σταυρός) and xylon (ξύλον). The latter means wood (a live tree, timber or an object constructed of wood); in earlier forms of Greek, the former term meant an upright stake or pole, but in Koine Greek it was used also to mean a cross.[109] The Latin word crux was also applied to objects other than a cross.[110]

However, early Christians writers who speak of the shape of the particular gibbet on which Jesus died invariably describe it as having a cross-beam. For instance, the Epistle of Barnabas, which was certainly earlier than 135,[111] and may have been of the 1st century AD.,[112] the time when the gospel accounts of the death of Jesus were written, likened it to the letter T (the Greek letter tau, which had the numeric value of 300),[113] and to the position assumed by Moses in Exodus 17:11-12.[114] Justin Martyr (100–165) explicitly says the cross of Christ was of two-beam shape: "That lamb which was commanded to be wholly roasted was a symbol of the suffering of the cross which Christ would undergo. For the lamb, which is roasted, is roasted and dressed up in the form of the cross. For one spit is transfixed right through from the lower parts up to the head, and one across the back, to which are attached the legs of the lamb."[115] Irenaeus, who died around the end of the 2nd century, speaks of the cross as having "five extremities, two in length, two in breadth, and one in the middle, on which [last] the person rests who is fixed by the nails."[116] For other witnesses to how early Christians envisaged the shape of the gibbet used for Jesus, see Dispute about Jesus' execution method.

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Melakukan sebaik seperti yang dihujat, jauh lebih sulit.
May 10, 2012, 10:47:43 PM
Reply #118
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DEATH PENALTY
WHEN LIFE GENERATES DEATH (LEGALLY)

ROMANS

The Romans were a people original of central Italy which in its maximum expansion occupated almost all Europe, North Africa and Asia Minor. The Roman civilization started in the VIII century b.C. with the foundation of Rome, and ended in the V century a.D., due to the barbaric invasions.

In the Roman age, at least in the first centuries, the public authority intervened to punish only the crimes against the general order which were extimated public treason. And in these case it intervened in high mode, often with the death penalty. For private crimes the law of retaliation was applied , which often caused the death of the cuplrit.
But not only the treason of the State and other crimes against the State were extimated among heaviest crimes, but also bringing away a boundary-stone which delimitated the border of a ground, stealing the beasts or the harvest from anyone, violating anyone, infringing a promise, lying, stealing during the night, setting a house on fire, stealing from the master, cheating a client.

The punishments, attending to the Law of the XII tables (V century b.C.), were really cruel. The Romans used beheading, flogging till death, hanging, drowning, cutting of the limbs, the stake; the vestals guilty of infidelity were buried alive, because shedding their blood wasn't permitted, and their seducer was beaten till death; public enemies, slaves who had stolen something from the master, culprits of false witness were thrown by the Tarpeia cliff; for the slaves, and for those peoples who were not Roman citizens, there was the crucifixion, a penalty particulary long and painful.

There are also many examples of other methods: the king Tullo Ostilio, for example, quartered Mettio Fufetio because he had violated the pacts with Rome, fastening him to two wagons which were then lauched in opposite directions.
Also in the long run there was this kind of punishments among the Romans; still in 71 b.C. more than 6,000 men who followed Spartacus in his rebellion against Rome were crucified along the streets, and in the first centuries of the vulgar age the christians, extimated coulpable of overthrowing the public order, were given to the bests like meal in the amphitheatre.

http://library.thinkquest.org/23685/data/romans.html
Menghujat sangat mudah, terlebih lagi jika tanpa bukti.
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May 10, 2012, 11:10:20 PM
Reply #119
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Mat 27:40    mereka berkata: "Hai Engkau yang mau merubuhkan Bait Suci dan mau membangunnya kembali dalam tiga hari, selamatkanlah diri-Mu jikalau Engkau Anak Allah, turunlah dari salib itu!"

Mt 27:40    kai legonteV o kataluwn ton naon kai en trisin hmeraiV oikodomwn swson seauton ei uioV ei tou qeou katabhqi apo tou staurou

καὶ λέγοντες, Ὁ καταλύων τὸν ναὸν καὶ ἐν τρισὶν ἡμέραις οἰκοδομῶν, σῶσον σεαυτόν, εἰ υἱὸς εἶ τοῦ θεοῦ, [καὶ] κατάβηθι ἀπὸ τοῦ σταυροῦ.

σταυρός,n  \{stow-ros'}
1) a cross  1a) a well known instrument of most cruel and ignominious  punishment, borrowed by the Greeks and Romans from the  Phoenicians; to it were affixed among the Romans, down to the  time of Constantine the Great, the guiltiest criminals,  particularly the basest slaves, robbers, the authors and  abetters of insurrections, and occasionally in the provinces,  at the arbitrary pleasure of the governors, upright and  peaceable men also, and even Roman citizens themselves  1b) the crucifixion which CHRIST underwent  2 an upright "stake", esp. a pointed one, used as such in fences or  palisades

The words "cross" and "crucify" are mistranslations, a "later rendering," of the Greek words stauros and stauroo. According to Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, STAUROS denotes, primarily, an upright pole or stake. The shape of the two-beamed cross had its origin in ancient Chaldea and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz. In the third century A.D., pagans were received into the apostate ecclesiastical system and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols.

According to The Companion Bible, crosses were used as symbols of the Babylonian Sun-god. The evidence is complete; the Lord was put to death upon an upright stake, not on two pieces of timber placed at an angle.

According to Encyclopaedia Britannica, in the Egyptian churches the cross was a pagan symbol of life borrowed by the Christians and interpreted in the pagan manner.

According to Greek dictionaries and lexicons, the primary meaning of stauros is an upright pale, pole, or stake. The secondary meaning of "cross" is admitted to be a "later" rendering. In spite of the evidence, almost all common versions of the Scriptures persist with the Latin Vulgate's crux (meaning cross) as the rendering of the Greek stauros.

The most accepted reason for the "cross" being brought into Messianic worship is Constantine's famous vision of "the cross superimposed on the sun" in A.D. 312. What he saw is nowhere to be found in Scripture. Even after his so-called "conversion," his coins showed an even-armed cross as a symbol for the Sun-god. Many scholars have doubted the "conversion" of Constantine because of the wicked deeds that he did afterwards.

After Constantine had the "vision of the cross," he promoted another variety of the cross, the Chi-Rho or Labarum. This has been explained as representing the first letters of the name Christos (CH and R, or, in Greek, X and P). The identical symbols were found as inscriptions on rock, dating from ca. 2500 B.C., being interpreted as "a combination of the two Sun-symbols." Another proof of its pagan origin is that the identical symbol was found on a coin of Ptolemeus III from 247-222 B.C.

According to An Illustrated Encyclopedia of Traditional Symbols, the labarum was also an emblem of the Chaldean sky-god. Emperor Constantine adopted the labarum as the imperial ensign. According to Dictionary of Mythology Folklore and Symbols, the symbol was in use long before Christianity. Chi probably stood for Great Fire or Sun. Rho probably stood for Pater or Patah (Father). The word labarum yields "everlasting Father Sun."
 


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