Author Topic: Tuhan Yesus Kristus tidak mungkin dan tidak dapat berbuat dosa  (Read 8165 times)

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June 25, 2015, 11:32:48 AM
Reply #40
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Sama donk Brow.

Pernah saya sampaikan jg bhw 'impeccability of Christ' ini diyakini oleh Gereja Orthodox dan Katolik Roma, dua Gereja yg jauh ada lebih dulu dibandingkan saya (siapalahhhh).
Betul, GO dan GKR meyakini 'impeccability of Christ'


Saya (dan denominasi saya) punya pendapat bbeda, tp saya ngga sampai ngotot juga dg pendapat saya dan saya ngga sampai ngotot juga mrasa denominasi saya pasti yg bener.
Silahkan sampaikan pendapat2 sodara dan rekan2 pro-peccability mengenai peccability of Christ dan saya dan rekan2 pro-impeccability juga menyampaikan pendapat kami..

sehingga memperluas wacana bagi masing2 pihak dan juga bagi readers ttg perspektif pro-peccability vs perspektif pro-impeccability.




Pendapat bbrp rekan Katolik:

In the beginning, God made man with three kinds of gifts:
1) human nature or "natural gifts"
2) Supernatural gifts
3) Preternatural gifts

Because of Adam's sin, he lost all but gift #1 (human nature). His human nature did not substantially change. What changed was the lack of other gifts which served to intrisically "elevate" his human nature. Nonetheless, he only lost gifts #2 & #3, but retained his original human nature (gift #1).

We inherit gift #1--human nature--by virtue of natural generation. Jesus inhereted this gift too, as he was born of Mary. We did not inherit gifts #2 nor gift #3 by natural generation.

Gift #2 includes sanctifying grace. That we lack gift #2 when we are made is called "original sin," because we lack the original justice that Adam had been given when they were made.

Jesus did not receive gift #2 by natural generation. Why? Because He is the Gift-giver. He is Divine and required no such gift. Thus, he was indeed without original sin as he did not lack sanctifying grace.

Jesus ALWAYS possessed the Beatific Vision in its perfection. Thus, Jesus was impeccable.

Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 25, 2015, 11:53:27 AM
Reply #41
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PECCABILITY

The argument of peccabillity falls on the premise that if Hebrews 4:15 says that Christ “has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin..", then the potential to sin must have existed in order for the temptation to be legitimate and valid.
In other words, the fact of temptation occurring assumes that one always has the ability to fall to that temptation, and if Christ was as fully human as He was divine, then he would have that ability to fall, as anyone with a true human nature would, though He did not fall

The strength of the argument of peccability is that it stands firm logically.
If Christ could not have chosen to have sinned in a temptation, since the point of a temptation is a choice, then what worth would there be to experience temptation, even if one did not give in  so the definition of temptation implicating a possibility of a wrong choice means that Christ must have been able to choose sin though He did not.
This is the strength of the view of peccability: on the surface it appeals to human logic when viewing temptation as operating from that goal of possible choice.

Theolog: Charles Hodge, dll


IMPECCABILITY

Argument 1: (Wayne Grudem)
1.) If Christ’s human nature existed by itself as Adam’s, then there was a possibility to sin.
2.) But Jesus’ human nature never existed apart from His divine nature.  They existed in a hypostatic union. 
3.) Jesus did experience some things that were in His human nature alone such as thirst and other things, but an act of sin was not exclusive to His human nature, it would have involved the whole person.
4.) Then if Jesus had sinned, since it involves the whole of a person, then God would have sinned, since the whole person includes the divine nature fused with the human part.
5.) So if we accept that His human and divine natures were fused as one in unity, then it would not be possible to sin as His whole person would have prevented it

Argument 2: (Walvoord)
While the temptation for individuals might be the exact same temptation in form, it does not exercise the exact control and hold of one who is omnipotent and holy in pure character and the true definition of holiness.  Therefore that omnipotent holy One is impeccable because the temptation has no power over Him

http://www.southhopecommunitychurch.org/shcc-blog/archives/02-2013

« Last Edit: June 25, 2015, 12:13:01 PM by Seek d Truth »
Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 25, 2015, 12:02:43 PM
Reply #42
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Menanggapi frase merah: If our union with God in heaven is perfecting enough for sinners like us, sufficient enough to make us impeccable in heaven, then the hypostatic union for Jesus throughout his Incarnation likewise made it impossible for Jesus to sin.

Regarding the hypostatic union of Christ, at the Council of Chalcedon, 451 AD, the Church declared that Christ’s two natures are joined “in one person and one hypostasis."

The phrase hypostatic union was adopted by the fifth general council at Constantinople, 533 AD.
That council declared that the union of two natures is real (against Arius), not a mere indwelling of God in a man (against Nestorius), with a rational soul (against Apollinaris), and that in Christ’s divine nature remains unchanged (against Eutyches).

Christ's divine will is separate from His human will (cf. LK 22:42).
However, both wills are always in perfect harmony because His human will always aligns itself with His divine will.

Sis , Kristus tidak ada pemisahan  kemanusia dan keilahian Kristus.

Dalam keunikan Kristus yang 100% manusia dan 100% Allah, tidak tercampur, tidak terpisah dengan uniknya.

Status nature Kristus yang inkarnasi, merupakan status seperti Adam mula mula.

Paulus telah mengatakan Adam pertama jatuh dalam dosa, Adam kedua , tidak berbuat dosa, walau Tuhan Yesus mempunyai kemungkinan berbuat dosa.

Tuhan Yesus datang menjadi manusia seperti kita, dapat jatuh kedalam dosa.

 Kristus menunjukkan pada kita, Dia digoda, tetapi tetap tidak berbuat dosa.

Status Kristus sama seperti Adam mula mula :
* dapat berbuat dosa.
* dapat tidak berbuat dosa.

Ini adalah ajaran bapa Gereja Agustinus.

Sayangnya kamu yang katolik menolak ajaran bapa gerejamu.

Saya perhatikan tulisan kamu sebenarnya, kamu hanya tidak mengerti apa yang diajarkan Agustinus.

Kalau dapat tidak berbuat BUKAN berarti statusnya berdosa.

Status Kristus inkarnasi adalah KUDUS, sama seperti Adam mula mula Kudus.
June 25, 2015, 12:06:00 PM
Reply #43
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Saya tidak berdebat, hanya menyampaikan kenyataan ayat tersebut.

Sarpag, saya sudah katakan saya pengikut Kristus dan saya percaya harus Reform, saya TIDAK MENGIKUTI MANUSIA.

Silakan memberi pencerahan Sarpag.

I'm sorry sis ya

kamu katakan pengikut Kristus oke
namun harus percaya doktrin Reform <----- logika yang aneh
ya artinya kamu bukan mengikut Kristus melainkan ngikut doktrin Reform
lebih lanjut itu artinya kamu mengikuti orang yang membuat doktrin Reform
sebab doktrin Reform itu tidak dibuat oleh Kristus, melainkan dibuat oleh teolog abad 16 yang bernama Calvin

so in short :
kamu ini pengikut Calvin/Reform atau biasa disebut Calvinist/Reformist

begitulah apa adanya, semua juga bisa melihat itu koq
Bergaul karib dengan Tuhan, lakukan kehendak Tuhan
I have decided, to follow Jesus, no turning back
http://berbagi-sharing.blogspot.com/
Berjaga-jagalah senantiasa, sebab kamu tidak tahu kapan waktuNya tiba
June 25, 2015, 12:07:14 PM
Reply #44
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Mungkin pertanyaan berikut dapat menjadi titik awal perbedaan pandangan antara rekan2 pro-peccability dan pro-impeccability:

What was the divine sovereign purpose of the temptations of Christ?
a. to strengthen Christ's resolve ?
b. so that He could learn about faith as we do ?

Silahkan pendapatnya rekan2 pro-peccability ?


IMO: (pro-impeccability)> The purpose of the temptations of Christ was:
a. not to see if Christ could sin, but to demonstrate to the universe to the glory of God that He could not sin.. so we can trust in him for our salvation not because he is “really good” at being holy, but because holiness is a part of his nature and goodness ultimately comes from his divinity. So, when we say, “Jesus I trust in you” we are trusting in the most firm and reliable aspect of reality, not a God who could have failed but thankfully for us, did not.
b. served as a clear message to Satan that the Sovereign Throne of the Kingdom was off limits and beyond Satan's control.

Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 25, 2015, 12:31:32 PM
Reply #45
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Sis , Kristus tidak ada pemisahan  kemanusia dan keilahian Kristus.

Dalam keunikan Kristus yang 100% manusia dan 100% Allah, tidak tercampur, tidak terpisah dengan uniknya.

Status nature Kristus yang inkarnasi, merupakan status seperti Adam mula mula.

Paulus telah mengatakan Adam pertama jatuh dalam dosa, Adam kedua , tidak berbuat dosa, walau Tuhan Yesus mempunyai kemungkinan berbuat dosa.

Tuhan Yesus datang menjadi manusia seperti kita, dapat jatuh kedalam dosa.

 Kristus menunjukkan pada kita, Dia digoda, tetapi tetap tidak berbuat dosa.

Status Kristus sama seperti Adam mula mula :
* dapat berbuat dosa.
* dapat tidak berbuat dosa.

Ini adalah ajaran bapa Gereja Agustinus.

Sayangnya kamu yang katolik menolak ajaran bapa gerejamu.

Saya perhatikan tulisan kamu sebenarnya, kamu hanya tidak mengerti apa yang diajarkan Agustinus.

Kalau dapat tidak berbuat BUKAN berarti statusnya berdosa.

Status Kristus inkarnasi adalah KUDUS, sama seperti Adam mula mula Kudus.
Jangan cuman sepotong, sbb akibatnya kamu yg gak ngerti ajaran St augustine...

But, said the Saint, in His divine nature he was Non posse pecarre- He could not sin because He was God and it was against His nature to do so.

For Augustine, the lack of Christ's having a fallen nature is what allowed Him to in His flesh be tempted in every way as we are and yet never sin because His flesh was not fallen and He also was divine, this was later affirmed by the Church when it declared Jesus two natures to be distinct but not sperate at the Council of Chalcedon.


St Augustine taught, ” Let everyone that believes that the flesh of Christ revolted against His Spirit, be excluded” (Opus imperfectum c. Iul, IV 47). 


Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 25, 2015, 12:43:18 PM
Reply #46
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I'm sorry sis ya

kamu katakan pengikut Kristus oke
namun harus percaya doktrin Reform <----- logika yang aneh
ya artinya kamu bukan mengikut Kristus melainkan ngikut doktrin Reform
lebih lanjut itu artinya kamu mengikuti orang yang membuat doktrin Reform
sebab doktrin Reform itu tidak dibuat oleh Kristus, melainkan dibuat oleh teolog abad 16 yang bernama Calvin

so in short :
kamu ini pengikut Calvin/Reform atau biasa disebut Calvinist/Reformist

begitulah apa adanya, semua juga bisa melihat itu koq

Hen hen, coba jelaskan apa itu Reform ?

Dimana kalimat saya mengatakan HARUS -----??????

June 25, 2015, 12:45:14 PM
Reply #47
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Hen hen, coba jelaskan apa itu Reform ?

Dimana kalimat saya mengatakan HARUS -----??????

buat saya udah sangat jelas
Reform = Calvin (mungkin ga 100% tapi 90% up)

coba baca2 lagi postnya diatas itu, saya sudah bold + red gitu masa ga kebaca
Bergaul karib dengan Tuhan, lakukan kehendak Tuhan
I have decided, to follow Jesus, no turning back
http://berbagi-sharing.blogspot.com/
Berjaga-jagalah senantiasa, sebab kamu tidak tahu kapan waktuNya tiba
June 25, 2015, 12:58:22 PM
Reply #48
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Jangan cuman sepotong, sbb akibatnya kamu yg gak ngerti ajaran St augustine...

But, said the Saint, in His divine nature he was Non posse pecarre-
He could not sin because He was God and it was against His nature to do so.


For Augustine, the lack of Christ's having a fallen nature is what allowed Him to in His flesh be tempted in every way as we are and yet never sin because His flesh was not fallen and He also was divine, this was later affirmed by the Church when it declared Jesus two natures to be distinct but not sperate at the Council of Chalcedon.


St Augustine taught, ” Let everyone that believes that the flesh of Christ revolted against His Spirit, be excluded” (Opus imperfectum c. Iul, IV 47).

Kalau Kristus tidak mungkin berdosa, Kristus tidak dapat menggenapi penebusan diatas kayu salib dan tidak dapat mati karena natureNya bukan seperti kita.

Kristus dapat berdosa yang dikatakan oleh Agustinus , adalah bahwa Kristus inkarnasi seperti kita, dalam nature Adam mula mula.

Kembali lagi terserah penilaian anda sis.

Tidak ada habisnya kalau terus didebatkan.

Sudah jelas ada perbedaan disini.

Bagi saya Filipi jelas melukiskan tentang keadaan Kristus yang sama dengan kita, itu dikatakan, bahwa Dia dapat merasakan kelemahan kita.

Ibr 4
4:15 Sebab Imam Besar yang kita punya,
* bukanlah imam besar yang tidak dapat turut merasakan kelemahan-kelemahan kita,
sebaliknya sama dengan kita, Ia telah dicobai, hanya tidak berbuat dosa.

Kristus sama seperti kita, benar benar dicobai, hanya RIDAK BERBUAT DOSA.

Kristus mampu menghadapi cobaan, tetap TIDAK JATUH KEDALAM DOSA.

Teladan Kristus yang luar biasa, mengajarkan pada kita untuk lawan DOSA.

Tidak mungkin berdosa, atau imum terhadap dosa, itu bukan nature manusia.

Nature Kristus sama dengan Adam mula mula ,
* posse picarre
* non posse picarre.
June 25, 2015, 01:03:12 PM
Reply #49
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buat saya udah sangat jelas
Reform = Calvin (mungkin ga 100% tapi 90% up)

coba baca2 lagi postnya diatas itu, saya sudah bold + red gitu masa ga kebaca

Reform artinya BACK TO BIBLE, sebagai dasar dan pedoman hidup orang Kristen.

Calvin adalah salah satu pendiri Reform, pendobrak kembalinya Alkitab sebagai dasar dan pedoman hidup orang orang Kristen, pengikut Kristus.

Kasihan sekali, kamu sendiri adalah seorang Reform, tapi tidak menyadarinya, hahaha

Bukankah ALKITAB adalah dasar kamu dan pedoman hidup kamu.

Henhen banyak belajar sejarah Gereja.

Setiap orang yang berdasarkan ALKITAB, adalah seorang Reform.

Ajaran Reform ? adalah akjaran berdasarkan ALKITAB, sebgaia dasar ajaran ajaran.
 


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