Author Topic: MESIAS atau Gereja Katolik di Matius 16:18?  (Read 6541 times)

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September 09, 2016, 12:49:07 PM
Reply #30
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Kalau cinta bilang itu tidak benar
artinya cinta mempersalahkan Paulus yang jelas2 menulis Kefas bersalah
saya percaya Cinta atau Paulus? Ya jelas Paulus
sesimple itu saja sudah ngga usah diperdebatkan lagi

ini sama saja prinsipnya koq dengan menerima nats bahwa kunci kerajaan sorga itu hanya tercatat diberikan kepada pribadi Petrus apa adanya
Kita orang-orang merdeka, kok.

Dari Gal 2:11-12 itu, ditambah lagi dengan ayat 13, kiranya jelas dimaksudkan bahwa Paulus mempersalahkan Kefas yang mengundurkan diri dari meja yang tadinya bersama kaum tidak bersunat, dan Paulus mengkaitkannya pada kehadiran kalangan Yakobus (kaum bersunat), serta Paulus mengatakan Petrus takut kepada kaum bersunat. Menurut pendapatku, pengunduran diri Petrus itu, hanya bertepatan saja dengan kedatangan kalangan Yakobus di tempat itu, tidak terkait dengan ketakutan Petrus.
Kuping Malkhus saja ditebas oleh Petrus, bagaimana dia takut kepada saudara seimannya?
Kornelius (kaum tidak bersunat) saja diinjilinya, bagaimana dia takut terlihat semeja dengan kaum tidak bersunat?

Lhah, kalo ada orang berpendapat bahwa Petrus salah karena Paulus menuliskan begitu, merdeka saja, kok. Namun kalo dituliskan bahwa kesalahan Petrus karena takut terlihat bersamaan dengan kaum tidak bersunat, nanti dulu. Adakah informasi pendukungnya? Kalo Petrus menginjili Kornelius yang tidak bersunat itu, dicatat di Alkitab. Kalo Petrus menebas kuping Malkhus, itu tercatat di Alkitab.

Nah, terserah pembaca Alkitab dong? Ingin mempercayai yang mana, monggo.

Dikit lagi.

Kukira, mempersamakan soal ini dengan pemberian kunci Kerajaan Sorga kepada Petrus, tidak benar-benar pas. Pada pemberian kunci Kerajaan Sorga, tidak ada indikasi penyebabnya. Ujug-ujug saja Yesus Kristus mengatakan memberikan kunci Kerajaan Sorga, walalupun bisa saja dikait-kaitkan dengan pemberian itu karena pengakuan Petrus. Tapi, ayat itu sinambung tanpa dinyatakan dihubungkan dengan kausalitas. Sementara pada penudingan kesalahan Kefas ini, dikatakan, karena terkait dengan semeja dengan kaum tidak bersunat.

@Cinta Bhinneka senang kalau kita bisa sepemahaman dalam hal itu. Namun, pun kalau tidak sepemahaman, tidak jadi soal. Syukur kalo pembaca bisa menangkap beda yang kutang-kap itu.

Salam olahraga.
Coba tebak, avatarku sedang sakit gigi atau menyeringai?
September 09, 2016, 12:56:59 PM
Reply #31
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Ya, setuju dengan HenHen.

Saya suka membaca ayat apa adanya saja, tanpa bawa2 denominasi "saya berasal darimana." Sama juga ketika saya menemukan Martin Luther ga bener, sayapun dengan terbuka mengakui kesalahannya. Reff: http://www.sarapanpagi.org/luther-hitler-Kristen-dan-yahudi-vt8355.html

Ketika benar2 ingin belajar Alkitab, sebaiknya kita membuang sikap "sektarian" dan membuang sikap-sikap membawa-bawa supremasi denominasi kita.

Alkitab kita "Ya" dan "amin", kalau dia menulis "bersalah" yang memang "bersalah"-lah dia, jangan lantas menjadikanya pada makna "tidak bersalah". Sebab kata "bersalah" itu tidak berdiri sendiri. Ayat ini dengan jelas menyatakan Rasul Paulus berani secara terbuka "menentang"-nya. Lha kalau diartikan "tidak bersalah" demi menjaga "kewibawaan Gereja Katolik Roma", seharusnya kata "aku menentang"-nya yang dinyatakan Rasul Paulus juga harus "turut diplesetkan" menjadi "aku mendukungnya".......... Tapi apakah ini suatu pemahaman ayat yang benar?


* Galatia 2:11
LAI TB, Tetapi waktu Kefas datang ke Antiokhia, aku berterang-terang menentangnya, sebab ia salah.
KJV, But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
TR, οτε δε ηλθεν πετρος εις αντιοχειαν κατα προσωπον αυτω αντεστην οτι κατεγνωσμενος ην
Translit interlinear, hote {ketika} de {tetapi} êlthen {datang} petros {petrus} eis {ke} antiokheian {antiokhia} kata prosôpon {dengan terbuka} autô {dia} antestên {aku menentang, verb - second aorist active indicative - first person singular } hoti {karena} kategnôsmenos ên {dia dianggap salah, find fault with, verb - perfect passive participle - nominative singular masculine }

Dan coba seterusnya baca ayat 13. Paulus bahkan meneruskannya dengan menyatakan "Petrus munafik (ὑπόκρισις-hupokrisis.... seperti orang2 Yahudi yg lain)." Nah apakah demi menjaga "kewibawaan Gereja Katolik Roma" kata "munafik/ hipokrit" harus digantin maknanya menjadi "tulus"?

Dan seandainya Surat ini "menyinggung" kewibawaan suatu denominasi, apa ya mungkin Surat ini dibuang dari Perjanjian Baru?

Mari membaca ayat dengan apa adanya, secara "PLAIN (PESHAT)" yang JUJUR, bukan dalam lingkup "sektarian/ denominasi."

St Jerome writes,
"O blessed Apostle Paul, who has rebuked Peter for dissimulation, because he withdrew himself from the Gentiles through fear of the Jews who came from James, why art thou, notwithstanding thine own doctrine, compelled to circumcise Timothy, the son of a Gentile, nay more, a Gentile himself (for he was not a Jew, having not been circumcised)?  Thou wilt answer, ‘Because of the Jews which are in these quarters.?’  If, then, thou forgiveth thyself the circumcision of a disciple coming from the Gentiles, forgive Peter also, who has precedence above thee, his doing some things of the same kind through fear of the believing Jews."

In addition Jerome quotes Acts 18:18 where Paul cuts his hair in accordance to the Nazirite vow and comments,
"Be it granted that he was compelled through fear of the Jews in the other case to do what he was unwilling to do; wherefore did he let his hair grow in accordance with a vow of his own making, and afterwards, when in Cenchrea, shave his head according to the law, as the Nazarites, who had given themselves by vow to God, were wont to do, according to the law of Moses ?"

Jerome also quotes  Acts 21: 18-26 where Paul gives instructions for four men to have their heads shaved, which was according to the Nazirite vow, and then purified himself with them and made an offering in the temple, all in accordance with the Old Covenant ceremonial laws.


Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
September 09, 2016, 12:57:01 PM
Reply #32
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Pas kunci kerajaan sorga ada dong penyebabnya Cinta

baca deh ayat diatasnya tentang pengakuan Petrus
ngga ujug2 gitu aja Yesus ngasih "benda" sepenting itu ke sembarang orang tanpa alasan yang jelas

saya pikir sudah jelas semuanya koq
tinggal masing2 menilai saja
Bergaul karib dengan Tuhan, lakukan kehendak Tuhan
I have decided, to follow Jesus, no turning back
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Berjaga-jagalah senantiasa, sebab kamu tidak tahu kapan waktuNya tiba
September 09, 2016, 01:00:00 PM
Reply #33
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Acts 21: 18-26

In commenting on this passage Jerome says,
"Paul, here again let me question thee: Why didst thou shave thy head, why didst thou walk barefoot according to I (the) Jewish ceremonial law, why didst thou offer sacrifices, why were victims slain for thee according to the law?  Thou wilt answer, doubtless, ‘To avoid giving offense to those of the Jews who had believed.’  To gain the Jews, thou didst pretend to be a Jew; and James and all the other elders taught thee this dissimulation.  But thou didst not succeed in escaping, after all.  For when thou wast on the point of being killed in a tumult which had arisen, thou wast rescued by the chief captain of the band, and was sent by him to Caesarea, guarded by a careful escort of soldiers, lest the Jews should kill thee as a dissembler, and a destroyer of the law; and from Caesarea coming to Rome, thou didst, in thine own hired house, preach Christ to both Jews and Gentiles, and thy. testimony was sealed under Nero's sword."

"We have learned, therefore, that through fear of the Jews both Peter and Paul alike pretended that they observed the precepts of the law.  How could Paul have the assurance and effrontery to reprove in another what he had done himself ?  I at least, or, I should rather say, others before me, have given such explanation of the matter as they deemed best, not defending the use of falsehood in the interest of religion, as you charge them with doing, but teaching the honorable exercise of a wise discretion; seeking both to show the wisdom of the apostles, and to restrain the shameless blasphemies of Porphyry, who says that Peter and Paul quarreled with each other in childish rivalry, and affirms that Paul had been inflamed with envy on account of the excellences of Peter, and had written boastfully of things which he either had not done, or, if he did them, had done with inexcusable presumption, reproving in another that which he himself had done.  They, in answering him, gave the best interpretation of the passage which they could find; what interpretation have you to propound ?  Surely you must intend to say something better than they have said, since you have rejected the opinion of the ancient commentators."


(chapter 4, section 12)   "You say in your letter: ‘You do not require me to teach you in what sense the apostle says, "To the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews;" ’ and other such things in the same passage, which are to be ascribed to the compassion of pitying love, not to the artifices of intentional deceit. For he that ministers to the sick becomes as if he were sick himself, not indeed falsely pretending to be under the fever, but considering with the mind of one truly sympathizing what he would wish done for himself if he were in the sick man's place.  Paul was indeed a Jew; and when he had become a Christian, he had not abandoned those Jewish sacraments which that people had received in the right way, and for a certain appointed time.  Therefore, even when he was an apostle of Christ, he took part in observing these, but with this view, that he might show that they were in no wise hurtful to those who, even after they had believed in Christ, desired to retain the ceremonies which by the law they had learned from their fathers; provided only that they did not build on these their hope of salvation, since the salvation which was foreshadowed in these has now been brought in by the Lord Jesus."

Jerome sums up his commentary in section 17 with
"…for I say that both Peter and Paul, through fear of the believing Jews, practiced, or rather pretended to practice, the precepts of the Jewish law; whereas you maintain that they did this out of pity, ‘not with the subtlety of a deceiver, but with the sympathy of a compassionate deliverer.’   But by both this is equally admitted, that (whether from fear or from pity) they pretended to be what they were not.  As to your argument against our view, that he ought to have become to the Gentiles a Gentile, if to the Jews he became a Jew, this favors our opinion rather than yours: for as he did not actually become a Jew, so he did not actually become a heathen; and as he did not actually become a heathen, so he did not actually become a Jew.  His conformity to the Gentiles consisted in this, that he received as Christians the uncircumcised who believed in Christ, and left them free to use without scruple meats which the Jewish law prohibited; but not, as you suppose, in taking part in their worship of idols.  For ‘in Christ Jesus, neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but the keeping of the commandments of God.’ "


Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
September 09, 2016, 01:00:28 PM
Reply #34
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At this point we must give the challenge that Jerome makes in section 4 of his letter.
"If any one be dissatisfied with the interpretation here given, by which it is shown that neither did Peter sin, nor did Paul rebuke presumptuously a greater than himself, he is bound to show how Paul could consistently blame in another what he himself did."
It seems as though Paul learned from Peter’s good example in Galatians chapter 2 and imitated it in order to shepherd those weak in their faith.

CONCLUSION
Regardless of which interpretation we give to Galatians chapter 2 we have to accept that the text does not allow us believe that Paul corrected a false teaching of the Apostle Peter.  Therefore this passage cannot be used to justify dissent from the successor of Saint Peter, the Holy Father, the Pope.

At the end of Saint Jerome’s discussion of Galatians (section 18 of his letter), he seems to try to bring some levity to the whole misunderstanding.  Jerome gives a slight poke in the ribs to his friend when he concludes with, 
"I ask you, therefore, and with all urgency press the request, that you forgive me this humble attempt at a discussion of the matter; and wherein I have transgressed, lay the blame upon yourself who compelled me to write in reply…"


http://www.defendingthebride.com/ch/pa/gatatians.html

Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
September 09, 2016, 01:12:39 PM
Reply #35
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Inilah yang saya katakan "ALKITAB versus TRADISI SUCI" (Tulisan Jerome) well.. atau mungkin "ALKITAB plus TRADISI SUCI"

People can believe what they want to believe in.... itu namanya "freedom of faith."
Apakah dengan mengatakan kebenaran kepadamu aku telah menjadi musuhmu? (Galatia  4:16)
September 09, 2016, 01:13:12 PM
Reply #36
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kalo soal itu udah ngga usah dilogikain lagi, sudah tertulis jelas apa adanya :

Galatia 2
11. Tetapi waktu Kefas datang ke Antiokhia, aku berterang-terang menentangnya, sebab ia salah.

tertulis jelas dia salah ya dia salah
hal itu ditulis dalam inspirasi ROH KUDUS oleh Paulus
1. Ada bukti keterangan dari pihak SAKSI (penulis surat Acts) dlm ayat pada surat kisah para rasul bhw Petrus memaksa saudara-saudara yang tidak bersunat untuk hidup secara Yahudi ?
2. Ada bukti keterangan dari pihak TERTUDUH (Petrus) bhw Petrus memaksa saudara-saudara yang tidak bersunat untuk hidup secara Yahudi ?



Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
September 09, 2016, 01:19:20 PM
Reply #37
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Btw, ada enggak apology dari Petrus di Alkitab PB yang merefute claim Rasul Paulus dalam Galatia 2:11 "bahwa dia bersalah."

Alkitab sebaiknya dibaca apa adanya.

Kalau ada sumber diluar Alkitab Kanonik (Tradisi Suci), yang mengoreksi Paulus atas pernyataannya dalam Galatia pasal2 dan Anda mempercayainya, ya itu pilihan. Saya tidak mempersoalkannya.

Freedom of faith.
Apakah dengan mengatakan kebenaran kepadamu aku telah menjadi musuhmu? (Galatia  4:16)
September 09, 2016, 01:24:12 PM
Reply #38
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Inilah yang saya katakan "ALKITAB versus TRADISI SUCI" (Tulisan Jerome) well.. atau mungkin "ALKITAB plus TRADISI SUCI"

People can believe what they want to believe in.... itu namanya "freedom of faith."
Imo: opini Jerome itu SEHAT
Pada tulisannya tsb ada juga pertanyaan yg mempersilahkan readers untuk mengcounter opininya sbb:
"If any one be dissatisfied with the interpretation here given, by which it is shown that neither did Peter sin, nor did Paul rebuke presumptuously a greater than himself, he is bound to show how Paul could consistently blame in another what he himself did."



« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 01:49:12 PM by Seek d Truth »
Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
September 09, 2016, 02:08:29 PM
Reply #39
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No you don't.
Makanya lebih banyak belajar daripada banyak cuap cuap, mending bener, ngaco pula, jiaaaah, parah deh.


Umat katholik DIHARUSKAN hanya percaya apa yang diajarkan Magisterium, terutama mengenai Matius 16:18 ini.

Matius 16 ayat yang ke 18 (saja) diajarkan oleh gereja katolik sebagai legitimasi bahwa Yesus mendirikan satu2nya gereja katolik pada abad ke 3 yang dipimpin pengganti Petrus.

Boleh dilihat dari penjelasan2 gereja katolik yang bertebaran dimana2 apakah mengenai Yesus adalah Mesias Anak Allah Juru Selamat atau mengenai Gereja yang dipimpin Vicar Kristus.
Ada bapa Gereja yg menafsirkan kata 'the rock' pada ayat Mat 16:18 sbg 'peter's confession of faith'
Ada bapa Gereja yg menafsirkan kata 'the rock' pada ayat Mat 16:18 sbg 'st. petrus'

So, umat Katolik tidak diajarkan untuk memahami ayat Mat 16:18 sbg [EITHER 'peter's confession of faith' OR 'st. petrus' himself]
Melainkan mereka diajarkan untuk memahami ayat Mat 16:18 sbg [BOTH 'peter's confession of faith' AND 'st. petrus' himself]

Dgn kata lain, apabila sso berpendapat bhw kata 'the rock' pada ayat Mat 16:18 sbg:
a. [peter's confession of faith] TANPA tambahan kalimat [BUKAN st peter himself] --> maka pendapat tsb dapat diterima oleh umat Katolik.
b. [peter's confession of faith] PLUS tambahan kalimat [BUKAN st peter himself] --> maka pendapat tsb patut dipertanyakan.

Demikian juga, wa belum pernah baca ada bapa Gereja yg menafsirkan kata 'the rock' pada ayat Mat 16:18 sbg [peter's confession of faith] PLUS tambahan kalimat [BUKAN st peter himself]

« Last Edit: September 09, 2016, 02:15:30 PM by Seek d Truth »
Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
 


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