Author Topic: Single Predestinasi ---VS--- Double Predestinasi  (Read 2190 times)

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June 01, 2018, 01:41:54 PM
Reply #50
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sekedar menambah sudut pandang mengenai single predestination dan double predestination

1. ada 100 orang, 50 surga 50 bebas milih
2. ada 100 orang, 50 surga 50 neraka
3. ada 100 orang, 100 bebas milih
4. ada 100 orang, 50 neraka 50 bebas milih

yang mana sudut pandang anda?

Pada asumsi yg rama ajukan itu, sikon awal 100 tsb netral - tak tambahin opsi-nya ya rama....

5. SBJ, dari 100, 20 sorga, 20 neraka, 60 milih.
(angka bukan patokan, melainkan part-nya).

Saya ada dipilihan apakah yg nomor-1 ataukah yg nomor-5, tapi saya cenderung yang nomor-1.
Btw, pov saya mengenai yg dipilih (baik yg model nomor-1 atopun nomor-5) itu absolut dr kcmt Tuhan, 99,99% dr kcmt manusia.

Mksd saya,
kalu dr kcmt Tuhan,
50 sorga atopun 20 sorga 20 neraka ini PASTI akhirnya demikian sesuai dgn yg ditetapkan SBJ.

kalu dr kcmt manusia,
posibilitas akhirnya jadi berbeda tetep ada namun probabilitasnya amat amat amat kecil yg dipilih itu akhirnya jadi berbeda dari yang sudah ditetapkan SBJ.
June 01, 2018, 02:29:25 PM
Reply #51
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Nah... pertanyaannya :

1. kayak begimana itu Single Predestination yang dipercayai oleh sebagian Kekristenan ?
Katekismus Katolik
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace: ‘In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place [Acts 4:27-28]. For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.



Katekismus Orthodox
123.  How are we to understand the predestination of God, with respect to men in general, and to each man severally?
God has predestined to give to all men, and has actually given them preparatory grace, and means sufficient for the attainment of happiness.

124.  What is said of this by the Word of God?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. Rom. viii. 29.

125.  How does the orthodox Church speak on this point?
In the exposition of the faith by the Eastern Patriarchs it is said: As he foresaw that some would use well their free will, but others ill, he accordingly predestined the former to glory, while the latter he condemned. (Art. iii.)


2. Apa iya betul yg si penulis artikel bilang ada misunderstanding thdp Double Predestination
'misunderstand' dlm alam pemikiran penulis artikel:
Those who misunderstand Reformed theology perceive predestination in terms of “scripts” and “programs” which leave no room for human will and do not take into account human nature – both as a fallen creature and one that has been spiritually reborn.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/Single-vs-Double-Predestination
« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 02:40:03 PM by Seek d Truth »
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June 01, 2018, 02:47:18 PM
Reply #52
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oda thdp kalimat bold :
YA.... Reformed theology does not teach that God “makes us sin”, but Reformed does teach Double Predestination. Berangkat dari OS, lalu TD, lalu nongol dah itu DP  :cheesy:.
 WRONG again  :D.
 
[IF] yang diajukan itu sudah duluan "menipu", karena kalimat [from our lives] itu referensi time-frame-nya ada di Present Time. So, Logika-D nggak pas utk dijadikan senjata ke Single Predestination versi saya.

Nah... bagi Kekristenan Reformed, pertanyaannya :
C. IF God SBJ predestined 100 to be in heaven, 900 to be in hell
THEN which path would those 1000 choose in their lives ?


To oda's mind, the answer to this :
there's nothing to choose.

So, the rejection of “double predestination” oleh SP versi saya is from that C perspective.

Kembali ke pertanyaan yang sama utk Kekristenan yang SinglePredestination :
Apa iya betul yg si penulis artikel bilang bahwa yg SinglePredestination itu misunderstanding thdp Double Predestination ? Kalau tidak betul, jadi kayak apa yang menurt SinglePredestination thdp DoublePredestination sehingga tidak disepakati oleh SP ?
 

Calvinist :
It's NOT [God getting angry], BUT SBJ God needED to melampiaskan His angry, He needED someone to be angry with - that's why SBJ He took out 100 only from 1000 in order He is able to melampiaskan His angry to those 900.

At the same "time" (SBJ), God needed to melampiaskah His love, He needed someone to be loved - that's why SBJ He took out 100 from 1000 in order He is able to melampiaskan His love to those 100.

So, ketika ada 1 juta bayi at the same time ngbrojol :
X. Today I love you because SBJ I elected you
Y. Today I hate you because SBJ I didn't elect you

Manis mulut DoublePredestination thdp yang Y :
Today I hate you because you are totally depraved

sementara manis mulut DoublePredestination thdy yang X :
Although you are also totally depraved - but because SBJ I elected you, today I love you


 :D
Usul gini aja, kk oda:
1. sesama reformed kerangka TULIP: single vs double
2. monergism vs synergism
3. molinist vs thomist

Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 01, 2018, 03:04:21 PM
Reply #53
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reformed itu menafsirkan TULIP sebagai single predestination

mereka itu cuma salah satu denominasi yang menafsirkan apa yang dikatakan Augustinus aja
(meskipun mereka klaim diri mereka yang paling "murni" ajarannya}
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June 01, 2018, 03:06:55 PM
Reply #54
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tambah 1 lagi:
4. unconditional election/reprobation vs conditional election/reprobation




Until today the Catholic Church does not define dogmatically the nature of Election. There are two distinct theological views on election:
1. Unconditional (Absolute) Election: God by His decree chose the Elect when He created the world. It is adopted by the Thomists and Augustinians.
2. Conditional Election: God, being omniscience and not bound by time dimension, chose the Elect when He created the world based on His Divine Foreknowledge of their free response to His grace. It is adopted by most Molinists, St. Francis of Sales (1567 – 1622)

~ Molinism came from teaching of Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina (1535 – 1600).  Jesuit  is religious order founded by St. Ignatius of Loyola(1491 – 1556) in 1540.

Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 01, 2018, 03:19:26 PM
Reply #55
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imo; single predestination kalo pake kerangka TULIP jadinya seolah2 Allah CUMAN HANYA menciptakan adam dan hawa DOANG SAJA... terus lepas tangan, jadinya keturunan adam itu ciptaannya adam
justru hyper calvinis tu yg konsisten dgn kerangka TULIP menurut wa
Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
June 01, 2018, 03:39:40 PM
Reply #56
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ya, dulunya sy juga pikir begitu :)
tp dari diskusi sama teman2 reformed mereka gak begitu pemahamannya

makanya sy bilang reformed dan John Calvin itu sebenarnya cuma menafsirkan apa yang dituliskan oleh Augustinus
John Calvin duluan mencetuskan TULIP
reformed yang muncul belakangan gak TULIP-TULIP amat dalam kenyataannya
Bergaul karib dengan Tuhan, lakukan kehendak Tuhan
I have decided, to follow Jesus, no turning back
http://berbagi-sharing.blogspot.com/
Berjaga-jagalah senantiasa, sebab kamu tidak tahu kapan waktuNya tiba
June 01, 2018, 08:45:42 PM
Reply #57
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Katekismus Katolik
600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of ‘predestination’, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace:
Yang di bold, menurut kk mirip dengan yang sempet kk tulis ke rama sbb :
Quote
posibilitas akhirnya jadi berbeda tetep ada namun probabilitasnya amat amat amat kecil yg dipilih itu akhirnya jadi berbeda dari yang sudah ditetapkan SBJ




Quote
Katekismus Orthodox
123.  How are we to understand the predestination of God, with respect to men in general, and to each man severally?
God has predestined to give to all men, and has actually given them preparatory grace, and means sufficient for the attainment of happiness.
oke.

Quote
124.  What is said of this by the Word of God?
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate. Rom. viii. 29.
Nah... disini dari yg kk tangkep, DoublePredestination tidak (mengabaikan ?) melibatkan ayat diatas.

Quote
125.  How does the orthodox Church speak on this point?
In the exposition of the faith by the Eastern Patriarchs it is said: As he foresaw that some would use well their free will, but others ill, he accordingly predestined the former to glory, while the latter he condemned. (Art. iii.)
Dan dalam hal ini, yg kk duga - kalimat diatas tidak sedang didalam pengertian OSAS atopun ODAD ya, SdT ? (odad = once damned always damned  :D).

Quote
'misunderstand' dlm alam pemikiran penulis artikel:
Those who misunderstand Reformed theology perceive predestination in terms of “scripts” and “programs” which leave no room for human will and do not take into account human nature – both as a fallen creature and one that has been spiritually reborn.
https://owlcation.com/humanities/Single-vs-Double-Predestination
Ya... demikian dugaan kk, bold.  :happy0062:

June 01, 2018, 08:47:26 PM
Reply #58
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Usul gini aja, kk oda:
1. sesama reformed kerangka TULIP: single vs double
2. monergism vs synergism
3. molinist vs thomist
Nomor-1, loh kok bisa ?  :rolleye0014:

Nomor-2 dan nomor-3 istilah baru buat kk.
Kk belon ngubek2 internet mengenai kedua hal ini.
June 01, 2018, 08:58:09 PM
Reply #59
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Nah... disini dari yg kk tangkep, DoublePredestination tidak (mengabaikan ?) melibatkan ayat diatas.

Dan dalam hal ini, yg kk duga - kalimat diatas tidak sedang didalam pengertian OSAS atopun ODAD ya, SdT ? (odad = once damned always damned  :D).
Ajaran Orthodox begini kira2 kk oda...

St. Justin the Martyr:
“The cause of future events is not foreknowledge, but foreknowledge is the result of future events. The future does not flow from foreknowledge, but foreknowledge from the future. It is not Christ Who is the cause of the betrayal of Judas. But the betrayal is the cause of the Lord’s foreknowledge.”

Masuk ranah: monergism (calvinism) vs synergism (Orthodox)



Kalo Katolik dan Orthodox sama2 ga mengajarkan odad maupun osas.
Dlm Katolik ada ajaran ttg 'prevenient grace' : prevenient grace yg diberi bukan hanya pada orang pilihan saja  --(precede)--> free choice menerima/menolak injil --> bisa murtad jadi binasa.

Dlm calvinism: unconditional election --> lahir baru hanya pada orang2 pilihan saja --(precede)--> faith --> osas

Masuk ranah: unconditional election vs conditional election; calvinism vs Orthodox; thomist vs molinist


« Last Edit: June 01, 2018, 09:24:24 PM by Seek d Truth »
Repentance and humility establish the soul. Charity and meekness strengthen it.
- Monk Evagrius
 


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