Author Topic: Watchman Nee vs Witness Lee in Lord Recovery (pecah kongsi di gereja pemulihan)  (Read 451 times)

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September 07, 2018, 07:47:43 PM
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just sharing ...

Matius 6:24 (TB)  Tak seorang pun dapat mengabdi kepada dua tuan. Karena jika demikian, ia akan membenci yang seorang dan mengasihi yang lain, atau ia akan setia kepada yang seorang dan tidak mengindahkan yang lain. Kamu tidak dapat mengabdi kepada Allah dan kepada Mamon."


"Lord Recovery" (gereja pemulihan) akhirnya pecah kongsi juga diantara WN dan WL gara2 bisnis WL "Daystar" seperti dikutip dari Don Rutledge di  http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showpost.php?p=31491&postcount=22  sbb :

"... One evening I was walking with Brother Lee. He stopped, turned to me and then put his arm around my shoulder. (Never before and never since have I seen him embrace a brother. Thus, I realized he was about to tell me something very serious. He told me that he had made a terrible mistake with Daystar. He said that if he saw Brother Nee he would not know what to say since Brother Nee had warned him not to mix the church with financial matters or business. He then told me that he had once told Watchman Nee that he was not following him (Watchman Nee), but rather was following the truth and vision that Brother Nee taught. ..."

                                 Daystar

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. ...


Mengapa nama "Daystar" yang mirip artinya dengan Lucifer, son of the morning dipergunakan bisnis WL ???

Isaiah 14:12 (KJV)  How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 09:01:31 AM by smatic »
September 07, 2018, 07:57:39 PM
Reply #1
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just sharing ...

Watchman Nee : Trinity (Roh Allah Tritunggal)



Witness Lee : Triune God (Satan modalism)



Spt dikutip dari  http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/modalismofwitnesslee.htm

Modalism of Witness Lee Bearing False Witness
                       Against Watchman Nee


                       Serious Manipulations !

Here we see a false teaching perpetrated by Living Stream Ministry, namely Witness Lee who is the source and behind him Satan. Nowhere in all of Christian Fellowship Publishers or Christian Literature Crusade do you find the claims made below by Witness Lee in his Watchman Nee's writings on the Triune God. Witness Lee did not actually alter Nee's writings in this instance, but his followers confuse Watchman Nee for Witness unwittingly.
Paul Miletus (a Living Stream Ministry cult member) writes on a Witness Lee forum masked as a Watchman Nee forum, the "(Excerpt from 'Messages Given During the Resumption of Watchman Nee’s Ministry (2 Volume Set)' by Watchman Nee)" which was bearing false witness of Watchman Nee since Watchman Nee did not write this excerpt: "Concerning the question of the Triune God, we can say that 'God' is the personal name of the Triune God, that 'Christ' is the official name of the Triune God, and that the 'Holy Spirit' is the administrative name of the Triune God. It is better for us to say the Triune God than to say the Trinity" about Witness Lee as is professed.
Notice that Paul says "by Watchman Nee" when these words were actually someone else about Witness Lee's false teachings since Watchman Nee would never exalt such teachings. What is the common problem of Leeists? Confusing Nee for Lee or bearing false witness thinking Nee agreed with Lee just because Lee says Lee agrees with Nee. Watchman Nee did not believe in modalism. Understand the manipulation of Witness Lee. In the immediately preceding paragraph to the above excerpt, the actual author (Witness Lee or some lackey) wrote, "Brother Lee answered: There is no difference between these two things" to marry what Nee said to Lee said, then proceeded to talk about modalism as though Nee agreed with Lee. It is all very underhanded and manipulative to follow upon the centrality of God then immediately talk about modalism.

Watchman Nee never said "it is better for us to say the Triune God than to say the Trinity" nor did Nee ever say this about Witness Lee saying this. These are equivalent statements, and Nee used the term "Trinity" on several occasions in his writings to refer to the Godhead who is Triune. Understand why the LSM addition makes this bold addition not corroborated in Watchman Nee's writings at CFP & CLC, because The Local Church is against the Trinity of the Godhead. Modalists are not Trinitarians which bespeaks of their unsalvation. Since Watchman Nee never said this, nor did he ever say it about Witness Lee, nor does it belong in a volume of Watchman Nee, we can be certain it is a manipulation to try to make people think Watchman Nee agreed with Witness Lee's modalism.
But, what does Watchman Nee really teach? In Gospel Dialogue (CFP white covers), Nee writes, "'Jesus' is a personal name, whereas 'Christ' is a name corporate as well as personal."
So we find conflicting statements. We must conclude that since the Gospel Dialogue translation agrees with all of Nee's writings from CFP and CLC, then the LSM writing is an addition by the unregenerate Witness Lee to sin to bear false witness against Watchman Nee and to promote modalism by saying "there is no difference between these two things". Yet, Watchman Nee does not teach modalism: that these are just different modal names of the Triune God.
God is not THE personal name, but is the name of the Father. "God" can also be used to refer to the Godhead as a whole. Jesus is the personal name of the Second Person of the Trinity, not a modal name of the whole Godhead. The official name of the Triune God is "God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit"-the Godhead is The Trinity. Jesus is the Godhead bodily.

These mistakes are easy errors to delineate in exposing Witness Lee's corruptions. These issues are about Witness Lee's agenda, his cult, their product sales and really having nothing to do with Watchman Nee. They use his name, but are not in agreement with the Word of God, nor God's children such as Watchman Nee.

Love, in Christ,

Troy Brooks
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 04:56:16 AM by smatic »
September 08, 2018, 08:35:15 PM
Reply #2
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just sharing ...

Watchman Nee : Trinity (Roh Allah Tritunggal)



Witness Lee : Triune God (Satan modalism)



Spt dikutip dari  http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/modalismofwitnesslee.htm

Modalism of Witness Lee Bearing False Witness
                       Against Watchman Nee


                       Serious Manipulations !

Here we see a false teaching perpetrated by Living Stream Ministry, namely Witness Lee who is the source and behind him Satan. Nowhere in all of Christian Fellowship Publishers or Christian Literature Crusade do you find the claims made below by Witness Lee in his Watchman Nee's writings on the Triune God. Witness Lee did not actually alter Nee's writings in this instance, but his followers confuse Watchman Nee for Witness unwittingly.
Paul Miletus (a Living Stream Ministry cult member) writes on a Witness Lee forum masked as a Watchman Nee forum, the "(Excerpt from 'Messages Given During the Resumption of Watchman Nee’s Ministry (2 Volume Set)' by Watchman Nee)" which was bearing false witness of Watchman Nee since Watchman Nee did not write this excerpt: "Concerning the question of the Triune God, we can say that 'God' is the personal name of the Triune God, that 'Christ' is the official name of the Triune God, and that the 'Holy Spirit' is the administrative name of the Triune God. It is better for us to say the Triune God than to say the Trinity" about Witness Lee as is professed.

[cut...]

Love, in Christ,

Troy Brooks



Hi Newbie,

Saya rasa sumber yang kamu pakai bukan sumber yang kredibel dan dapat dipertanggung jawabkan sebagai situs yang memperkenalkan tokoh yang anda sebutkan dengan benar. Penuh dengan kebencian dan permusuhan  yang tidak mencerminkan karakter Kristus. Berhati-hatilah membaca di Internet sebab tidak semuanya ditulis di Internet dengan bebas ditulis dengan maksud dan tujuan yang baik.

Keduanya adalah orang-orang besar yang telah membawa gereja dan Kekristenan berkembang sangat luar biasa di RRC maupun Taiwan pada jamannya. Masing-masing juga sebagai manusia sama seperti kita memiliki kekurangan dan kelemahan, memilki ketidak berdayaan yang mana semua kekurangan tersebut telah diterima oleh TUHAN, sedangkan kita.,, siapa kita dan apa urusannya kita menghasut permusuhan dan kebencian terhadap mereka. Mereka sejatinya hanya berteman baik dan tidak membangun gereja bersama. Mereka hidup di jamannya bersama TUHAN dengan luar biasa sedangkan anda, saya dan semua disini sudah berbuat apa bagi TUHAN sepanjang hidup kita di jaman kita??? Jangan kita menjadi orang yang hanya pandai bicara dan mencela tetapi tidak ada karyanya.

Sekali lagi saya tidak kenal newbie dan tujuan mengangkat topik ini, namun demikian hormatilah mereka yang telah berjasa bagi gereja dan kekeristenan di negara nan juah disana.

Tentang DAYSTAR yang diserupakan dengan BINTANG TIMUR atau LUCIFER (latin) atau HAYLEL (ibrani) adalah sebutan juga bagi Kristus (Wahyu 22:16) dan bagi mereka yang menang tetap mengerjakan pekerjaan-Nya sampai akhir (Wahyu 2:28). Bintang Timur adalah gelar, bukan nama diri Iblis dan konotasinya adalah positif bukan negatif (Yes 14:12). Ketidak pahaman sering kali membuat kacau dan rancuh orang Kristen sehingga sering pada akhirnya terseret dalam pusaran teori-teori konspirasi dan kebencian yang tidak berdasarkan pengajaran para rasul. Awasilah dirimu dan awasilah ajaranmu demikian Alkitab menasihati.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2018, 08:43:41 PM by Krispus »
September 09, 2018, 04:26:10 PM
Reply #3
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https://www.gotquestions.org/Witness-Lee-local-church.html

Dr situ ada link ke sbuah jurnal, bisa utk bahan bacaan.

http://www.equip.org/christian-research-journal/we-were-wrong-2/

Skali lagi, terminologi bisa jd sbuah kendala saat melakukan diskusi konsep.
Org kdg maunya mmakai term tertentu, pokoknya kl termnya gak spt ini pasti salah, tanpa mau selidiki mendalam apa maksud pandangan org lain, siapa tau maksudnya serupa hanya termnya beda.
Tetapi siapa yang termasuk orang hidup mempunyai harapan, karena anjing yang hidup lebih baik dari pada singa yang mati (Pkh 9:4)

https://manusia-biasa-saja.blogspot.com
September 09, 2018, 06:53:20 PM
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Just sharing ...

Modalism ala WL spt dikutip dari buku2 nya :

1. Concerning the Triune God-the Father, the Son, and the Spirit (LSM: ND) halaman 8-9 :

"In the heavens, where man cannot see, God is the Father; when He is expressed among men, He is the Son; and when He comes into men, He is the Spirit. The Father was expressed among men in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit to come into men. The Father is in the Son, and the Son became the Spirit - the three are just one God."

2. Five Emphases in the Lord's Recovery (LSM: 1991) halaman 38 :

"In His economy, God passed through different stages. God was in eternity past. When He was in eternity past, He was merely and solely divine; He did not possess humanity. But one day about four thousand years after He created man, He became a man. He partook of man's nature, man's blood and flesh (Heb. 2:14). This is another stage of God. He became Emmanuel (Matt. 1:23). He became a God-man....In the New Testament, there are two great "becames." First, God became a man, the Word became flesh (John 1:14). Second, this God-man became a life-giving Spirit. These are the different stages of God. In eternity past the Spirit of God was merely the Spirit of divinity. But God became a man, and this God-man became the life-giving Spirit.... This life-giving Spirit, whom Jesus became, is the Spirit of God in another stage."

3. God's New Testament Economy (LSM: 1986) halaman 230 :

"The Bible does not divide God, the entire God, into thirds. Paul also tells us in 1 Timothy 3:16 that God was manifested in the flesh. This again shows us that the entire Godhead, the Triune God, became flesh. Economically speaking, God became flesh in the Son. This One who was conceived of the Holy Spirit was born to be a God-man. We cannot say that this God-man is the Son-man. This God-man is the Triune God-man. We believe that Jesus was the complete God and the perfect man. He was the Father, the Son, and the Spirit-man. He lived on this earth as the Triune God for thirty years before the beginning of His earthly ministry."



Yakobus 2:20 (TB) :
"Hai manusia yang bebal, maukah engkau mengakui sekarang, bahwa iman tanpa perbuatan adalah iman yang kosong ?"


WN & WL adalah penulis buku2 Kristen dari Cina, bukan seperti contoh dibawah ini seorang pengikut Tuhan Yesus Kristus dari Cina yang tidak sombong :



John Sung mendapat karunia penyembuhan dari Tuhan, ia selalu mendoakan orang-orang yang sakit, mujizat terjadi, banyak yang disembuhkan oleh Tuhan.
John Sung sadar bahwa dengan cara ini, orang-orang yang disembuhkan nantinya akan salah pengertian, mengaggapnya sebagai dukun. Namun, ia selalu memberi penjelasan, bahwa yang menyembuhkan mereka adalah Tuhan.



Mengapa bisnis Daystar WL mirip Lucifer karena WL telah 'menipu'/tidak mengembalikan uang jemaat2 Local Church yg diinvestasikan di Daystar spt dikutip di  http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vBulletin/showpost.php?p=72765&postcount=4

The devil is in the details ... and the outcome too. ...

When Lee was asked about the saints that lost money he said, "They lost their virginity." So maybe he used that name so that after stealing their money he could say : "You should have known better."
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 06:41:26 AM by smatic »
September 10, 2018, 05:03:46 PM
Reply #5
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may i offer a different perspective to look at this?

it is simply business competition..

hahahaha...
rite?

as simple as that..
October 06, 2018, 10:46:15 AM
Reply #6
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makanya kudu kembalikan fungsi gereja sebagaimana mestinya ( untuk kepentingan pekerjaan Kristus & bukan untuk kepentingan bisnis pribadi si pendetong ). sehebat-hebatnya seorang pendeta bisa 'khilaf' juga klo udah nyangkut urusan duit.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2018, 10:59:16 AM by jegan2000 »
October 09, 2018, 09:53:20 AM
Reply #7
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Datang kepada Tuhan dan Tuhan Yesus memberikan terang kepada kita semua.. jangan jatuh dalam perdebatan...
Hati2 dengan opini yang salah, lebih baik datang dan tanya ke lokal gereja langsung.. bukan malah ke orang2 yang hanya sekedar mendengar.. nanti bukan menjadi benar, malah semakin jatuh kedalam dosa, karena malah menghakimi... Tuhan memberkati kita semua..
 


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