Jadikan Alkitab sebagai Otoritas tertinggi dalam hidup kita

katanya surat pengampunan dosa itu diperdagangkan seperti yang ditulis oleh :

Reply #15 on: Today at 02:33:34 PM »

[b]itu makanya dia menentang praktek indulgensi + perdagangan surat pengampunan dosa (purgatory)[/b]

klo itu bukan surat pengampunan dosa, tetapi ayat yang tertulis dalam kitab injil matius.

apa benar, surat diperdagangkan??

bukan Paus, tetapi melalui sepengetahuan Paus.
yang jual tuh bawahannya Paus.
tapi klo sampai Paus gak tahu,haduhhh kasihan sekali Paus.
Kepala tapi tidak tahu kegiatan yang dilakukan bawahannya.

Nanti kalau tahu teruuuss… dibilang “Paus Maha Tahu” lagi… kan 10x10 dech… :slight_smile:

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

Pope/Paus emang tau bro…

ini baca sumber historis

Johann Tetzel… Pada tahun 1516, ia ditugasi untuk menjual indulgensia bagi pembangunan Gereja Santo Petrus di Roma (selengkapnya di: http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel)

versi bhs inggris:
In 1509 he was made an inquisitor, and in 1517 Pope Leo X made him commissioner of indulgences for all Germany. (selengkapnya di: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Tetzel)

Itu orang yg DITENTANG Martin Luther. Dia ngejual atas otorisasi Paus Leo X.

but again…mereka cuma oknum aza kok…oknum yg menyimpang dari otoritas Alkitab bahwa “pengampunan dosa” + “melepaskan dari hukuman” adalah HAK dari Tuhan YESUS alone :mad0261:

Johan Tetzel


Entahlah, lepas dari tahu/tidak (kalau ambilnya dari situs Katolik pasti bukan “ditugasi menjual”), hal ini memang agak menyimpang dari awalnya karena Indulgensi adalah bentuk Tradisi Perkembangan Gereja Katolik Roma, tidak pernah ada dalam Tradisi Rasuli Gereja Perdana.

Tidak ada sumber Tradisi Rasuli yang membahas tentang tradisi Indulgensi (dan depositnya) dalam sepanjang tulisan Bapa Gereja Perdana (kurang dari tahun 300 AD), jika ada umat Katolik Roma yang menyangkalnya silahkan berikan bukti tulisan Bapa Gereja tentang Indulgensi dengan syarat tahun dibawah 300 AD (mendekati tahun proto-apostolik/kerasulan awal). :slight_smile:

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

udah dimusnahkan kali bro??
untuk menghilangkan jejak…


Lho buat apa dimusnahkan? justru harusnya kalau ada dipelihara dunk kan diklaim sebagai Tradisi Rasuli… tapi nyatanya sepanjang saya tahu adalah: “Tidak Ada Satupun Pernyataan Tekstual Purgatory atau Indulgensi”.

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

menjadikan ALKITAB sebagai sumber utama pedoman hidup kita adalah teapt sekali, oleh sebab itu setiap orang yang percaya kepada Kristus harus mau belajar ALKITAB secara benar,bukannya hanya nurut apa yang ditafsirkan oleh Pendeta.
Kita masing-masing diberi hak untuk mengerti , tapi kebanyakan kita hanya mau instant saja, sehingga sering menjadi seorang kriten yang " nggumunan", gampang terobang -ambing oleh situasi

mana yah member2 katolik…pernyataan bro Daniel ditanggapi donk…
supaya diskusinya seimbang :wink:

Udah diberitahu kalau indulgensi dan penjualan relikwi serta praktek minta ampun pada Paus atau pastor serta menerima hukuman atas dosa kita dari pastor itu SEMUANYA TIDAK ADA DI ALKITAB!

Terus bagaimana cara saudara2 kita yang khatolik menjawab kecuali menjawab bahwa itu adalah TRADISI PAUS yang diturunkan turun temurun baik melalui lisan atau tulisan.

Berikut beberapa kutipan dari Bapa-Bapa Gereja yang berkaitan dengan purgatory:

The Early Church’s Belief in Purgatory

“Accordingly the believer, through great discipline, divesting himself of the passions, passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, viz., to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance from the sins he has committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more–not yet or not quite attaining what he sees others to have acquired. Besides, he is also ashamed of his transgressions. The greatest torments, indeed, are assigned to the believer. For God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness is righteous. And though the punishments cease in the course of the completion of the expiation and purification of each one, yet those have very great and permanent grief who are found worthy of the other fold, on account of not being along with those that have been glorified through righteousness.” Clement of Alexandria, Stromata, 6:14 (post A.D. 202).

“[T]hat allegory of the Lord which is extremely clear and simple in its meaning, and ought to be from the first understood in its plain and natural sense…Then, again, should you be disposed to apply the term ‘adversary’ to the devil, you are advised by the (Lord’s) injunction, while you are in the way with him, 'to make even with him such a compact as may be deemed compatible with the requirements of your true faith. Now the compact you have made respecting him is to renounce him, and his pomp, and his angels. Such is your agreement in this matter. Now the friendly understanding you will have to carry out must arise from your observance of the compact: you must never think of getting back any of the things which you have abjured, and have restored to him, lest he should summon you as a fraudulent man, and a transgressor of your agreement, before God the Judge (for in this light do we read of him, in another passage, as ‘the accuser of the brethren,’ or saints, where reference is made to the actual practice of legal prosecution); and lest this Judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation?” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 35 (A.D. 210).

“All souls, therefore; are shut up within Hades: do you admit this? It is true, whether you say yes or no: moreover, there are already experienced there punishments and consolations; and there you have a poor man and a rich…Moreover, the soul executes not all its operations with the ministration of the flesh; for the judgment of God pursues even simple cogitations and the merest volitions. ‘Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her, hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.’ Therefore, even for this cause it is most fitting that the soul, without at all waiting for the flesh, should be punished for what it has done without the partnership of the flesh. So, on the same principle, in return for the pious and kindly thoughts in which it shared not the help of the flesh, shall it without the flesh receive its consolation. In short, inasmuch as we understand ‘the prison’ pointed out in the Gospel to be Hades, and as we also interpret ‘the uttermost farthing’ to mean the very smallest offence which has to be recompensed there before the resurrection, no one will hesitate to believe that the soul undergoes in Hades some compensatory discipline, without prejudice to the full process of the resurrection, when the recompense will be administered through the flesh besides.” Tertullian, A Treatise on the Soul, 58 (A.D. 210).

“As often as the anniversary comes round, we make offerings for the dead as birthday honours.” Tertullian, The Chaplut, 3 (A.D. 211).

“[A] woman is more bound when her husband is dead…Indeed, she prays for his soul, and requests refreshment for him meanwhile, and fellowship (with him) in the first resurrection; and she offers (her sacrifice) on the anniversary of his falling asleep.” Tertullian, On Monogamy, 10 (A.D. 216).

“For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (1 Cor.,3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? Would you enter into heaven with your wood and hay and stubble and thus defile the kingdom of God; or on account of these hindrances would you remain without and receive no reward for your gold and silver and precious stones; neither is this just. It remains then that you be committed to the fire which will burn the light materials; for our God to those who can comprehend heavenly things is called a cleansing fire. But this fire consumes not the creature, but what the creature has himself built, wood, and hay and stubble. It is manifest that the fire destroys the wood of our transgressions and then returns to us the reward of our great works.” Origen, Homilies on Jeremias, PG 13:445, 448 ( A.D. 244).

“For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigour of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory: it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord.” Cyprian, To Antonianus, Epistle 51 (55):20 (A.D. 253).

“Let us pray for our brethren that are at rest in Christ, that God, the lover of mankind, who has received his soul, may forgive him every sin, voluntary and involuntary, and may be merciful and gracious to him, and give him his lot in the land of the pious that are sent into the bosom of Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, with all those that have pleased Him and done His will from the beginning of the world, whence all sorrow, grief, and lamentation are banished.” Apostolic Constitutions, 8:4,41 (3rd Century).

“The same divine fire, therefore, with one and the same force and power, will both burn the wicked and will form them again, and will replace as much as it shall consume of their bodies, and will supply itself with eternal nourishment: which the poets transferred to the vulture of Tityus. Thus, without any wasting of bodies, which regain their substance, it will only burn and affect them with a sense of pain. But when He shall have judged the righteous, He will also try them with fire. Then they whose sins shall exceed either in weight or in number, shall be scorched by the fire and burnt: but they whom full justice and maturity of virtue has imbued will not perceive that fire; for they have something of God in themselves which repels and rejects the violence of the flame.” Lactantius, The Divine Institutes, 7:21 (A.D. 307).

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth. And I wish to persuade you by an illustration. For I know that many say, what is a soul profited, which departs from this world either with sins, or without sins, if it be commemorated in the prayer? For if a king were to banish certain who had given him of-fence, and then those who belong to them should weave a crown and offer it to him on behalf of those under punishment, would he not grant a remission of their penalties? In the same way we, when we offer to Him our supplications for those who have fallen asleep, though they be sinners, weave no crown, but offer up Christ sacrificed for our sins, propitiating our merciful God for them as well as for ourselves.” Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 23:9,10 (c. A.D. 350).

“I think that the noble athletes of God, who have wrestled all their lives with the invisible enemies, after they have escaped all of their persecutions and have come to the end of life, are examined by the prince of this world; and if they are found to have any wounds from their wrestling, any stains or effects of sin, they are detained. If, however they are found unwounded and without stain, they are, as unconquered, brought by Christ into their rest.” Basil, Homilies on the Psalms, 7:2 (ante A.D. 370).

“Lay me not with sweet spices: for this honour avails me not; Nor yet incense and perfumes: for the honour benefits me not. Burn sweet spices in the Holy Place: and me, even me, conduct to the grave with prayer. Give ye incense to God: and over me send up hymns. Instead of perfumes of spices: in prayer make remembrance of me.” Ephraem, His Testament (ante A.D. 373).

“Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their [the dead’s] behalf…it is useful, because in this world we often stumble either voluntarily or involuntarily.” Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 375).

“When he has quitted his body and the difference between virtue and vice is known he cannot approach God till the purging fire shall have cleansed the stains with which his soul was infested. That same fire in others will cancel the corruption of matter, and the propensity to evil.” Gregory of Nyssa, Sermon on the Dead, PG 13:445,448 (ante A.D. 394).

“Give, Oh Lord, rest to Thy servant Theodosius, that rest Thou hast prepared for Thy saints…I love him, therefore will I follow him to the land of the living; I will not leave him till by my prayers and lamentations he shall be admitted unto the holy mount of the Lord,to which his deserts call him.” Ambrose, De obitu Theodosii, PL 16:1397 (A.D. 395).

“Other husbands scatter on the graves of their wives violets, roses, lilies, and purple flowers; and assuage the grief of their hearts by fulfilling this tender duty. Our dear Pammachius also waters the holy ashes and the revered bones of Paulina, but it is with the balm of almsgiving.” Jerome, To Pammachius, Epistle 66:5 (A.D. 397).

“Weep for the unbelievers; weep for those who differ in nowise from them, those who depart hence without the illumination, without the seal! They indeed deserve our wailing, they deserve our groans; they are outside the Palace, with the culprits, with the condemned: for, “Verily I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of Heaven.” Mourn for those who have died in wealth, and did not from their wealth think of any solace for their soul, who had power to wash away their sins and would not. Let us all weep for these in private and in public, but with propriety, with gravity, not so as to make exhibitions of ourselves; let us weep for these, not one day, or two, but all our life. Such tears spring not from senseless passion, but from true affection. The other sort are of senseless passion. For this cause they are quickly quenched, whereas if they spring from the fear of God, they always abide with us. Let us weep for these; let us assist them according to our power; let us think of some assistance for them, small though it be, yet still let us assist them. How and in what way? By praying and entreating others to make prayers for them, by continually giving to the poor on their behalf.” John Chrysostom, Homilies on Phillipians, 3 (ante A.D. 404).

“If the baptized person fulfills the obligations demanded of a Christian, he does well. If he does not–provided he keeps the faith, without which he would perish forever–no matter in what sin or impurity remains, he will be saved, as it were, by fire; as one who has built on the foundation, which is Christ, not gold, silver, and precious stones, but wood, hay straw, that is, not just and chasted works but wicked and unchaste works.” Augustine, Faith and Works, 1:1 (A.D. 413).

“Now on what ground does this person pray that he may not be 'rebuked in indignation, nor chastened in hot displeasure”? He speaks as if he would say unto God, ‘Since the things which I already suffer are many in number, I pray Thee let them suffice;’ and he begins to enumerate them, by way of satisfying God; offering what he suffers now, that he may not have to suffer worse evils hereafter." Augustine, Exposition of the Psalms, 38(37):3 (A.D. 418).

“And it is not impossible that something of the same kind may take place even after this life. It is a matter that may be inquired into, and either ascertained or left doubtful, whether some believers shall pass through a kind of purgatorial fire, and in proportion as they have loved with more or less devotion the goods that perish, be less or more quickly delivered from it. This cannot, however, be the case of any of those of whom it is said, that they ‘shall not inherit the kingdom of God,’ unless after suitable repentance their sins be forgiven them. When I say ‘suitable,’ I mean that they are not to be unfruitful in almsgiving; for Holy Scripture lays so much stress on this virtue, that our Lord tells us beforehand, that He will ascribe no merit to those on His right hand but that they abound in it, and no defect to those on His left hand but their want of it, when He shall say to the former, “Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom,” and to the latter, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire.’” Augustine, Enchiridion, 69 (A.D. 421).

“During the time, moreover, which intervenes between a man’s death and the final resurrection, the soul dwells in a hidden retreat, where it enjoys rest or suffers affliction just in proportion to the merit it has earned by the life which it led on earth.” Augustine, Enchiridion, 1099 (A.D. 421).

“For our part, we recognize that even in this life some punishments are purgatorial,–not, indeed, to those whose life is none the better, but rather the worse for them, but to those who are constrained by them to amend their life. All other punishments, whether temporal or eternal, inflicted as they are on every one by divine providence, are sent either on account of past sins, or of sins presently allowed in the life, or to exercise and reveal a man’s graces. They may be inflicted by the instrumentality of bad men and angels as well as of the good. For even if any one suffers some hurt through another’s wickedness or mistake, the man indeed sins whose ignorance or injustice does the harm; but God, who by His just though hidden judgment permits it to be done, sins not. But temporary punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by others after death, by others both now and then; but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But of those who suffer temporary punishments after death, all are not doomed to those everlasting pains which are to follow that judgment; for to some, as we have already said, what is not remitted in this world is remitted in the next, that is, they are not punished with the eternal punishment of the world to come.” Augustine, City of God, 21:13 (A.D. 426).

"But since she has this certainty regarding no man, she prays for all her enemies who yet live in this world; and yet she is not heard in behalf of all. But she is heard in the case of those only who, though they oppose the Church, are yet predestinated to become her sons through her intercession…For some of the dead, indeed, the prayer of the Church or of pious individuals is heard; but it is for those who, having been regenerated in Christ, did not spend their life so wickedly that they can be judged unworthy of such compassion, nor so well that they can be considered to have no need of it. As also, after the resurrection, there will be some of the dead to whom, after they have endured the pains proper to the spirits of the dead, mercy shall be accorded, and acquittal from the punishment of the eternal fire. For were there not some whose sins, though not remitted in this life, shall be remitted in that which is to come, it could not be truly said, “They shall not be forgiven, neither in this world, neither in that which is to come.’ But when the Judge of quick and dead has said, ‘Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world,’ and to those on the other side, ‘Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire, which is prepared for the devil and his angels,’ and ‘These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life,’ it were excessively presumptuous to say that the punishment of any of those whom God has said shall go away into eternal punishment shall not be eternal, and so bring either despair or doubt upon the corresponding promise of life eternal.” Augustine, City of God,2 1:24 (A.D. 426).

“If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay.” Ceasar of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542).

“Each one will be presented to the Judge exactly as he was when he departed this life. Yet, there must be a cleansing fire before judgment, because of some minor faults that may remain to be purged away. Does not Christ, the Truth, say that if anyone blasphemes against the Holy Spirit he shall not be forgiven ‘either in this world or in the world to come’(Mt. 12:32)? From this statement we learn that some sins can be forgiven in this world and some in the world to come. For, if forgiveness is refused for a particular sin, we conclude logically that it is granted for others. This must apply, as I said, to slight transgressions.” Gregory the Great [regn. A.D. 590-604], Dialogues, 4:39 (A.D. 594).

Lengkapnya di Iman Katolik .....Media Informasi dan Sarana Katekese

Jadi bagaimana intinya?

Apakah Khatolik membenarkan api penyucian yang dilakukan oleh para Paus dalam inkuisisi?

Bro alvazez, saya kurang paham pertanyaan ini. Sampai saat ini Gereja Katolik tetap mengajarkan mengenai Api Penyucian/Purgatory, Indulgensia, dan masih memiliki lembaga inkuisisi yang saat ini disebut Kongregasi Doktrin Iman (CDF) yang dulu dikepalai oleh Kardinal Ratzinger (sekarang Paus Benediktus XVI).

Karena tulisannya banyak sekali maka saya perlu waktu untuk mengkajinya, saya kurangi dulu sedikit,

Tertullian kurang patut dipandang sebagai Bapa Gereja Perdana karena ia adalah pengikut Gereja Heretik Montanis.

Some of Tertullian’s ideas were not acceptable to the orthodox Church; in later life he became a Montanist.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertullian

Lainnya menyusul… :slight_smile:

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

He was once a church father but he lost the status when he left the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

Sangat disayangkan, kalu dilihat begitu besar talenta dan potensi yg ada pada diri Tertulianus ini. But the church also had to be blame because he left the church not because of the 4 pillars but because the church is tolerating sins and getting more worldly. Montanisme dari banyak segi tidak bertentangan dengan ajaran2 Katolik/dogma kecuali dalam hal moralitas dan disiplin. Infornya banyak bro, jadi silakan sebelum saya melebar menjadi OOT.


Gereja Orthodox Timur berusaha untuk menghindari bias Theologi Gereja Heretik, kita tidak pernah tahu tulisan Tertullian mana yang telah bias dengan paham Montanisme, oleh karena itu secara keseluruhanpun Tertullian tidak pernah dipandang sebagai Bapa Gereja Perdana oleh Gereja Orthodox Timur (kalau Gereja Katolik Roma memang memandangnya sebagai Bapa Gereja Perdana).

Montanisme tidak hanya heresy dalam hal moral/disiplin, melainkan juga dalam hal dogma Gereja, mereka ini menganut Modalisme…

Modalism, the teaching that God was not a Trinity but was a single God of three modes or manifestations, was a doctrine adhered to by a sect of the Montanists.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montanist

Best Regard,
Daniel FS

Kalau dibaca-baca lagi koq kayaknya diskusi ini tidak matching dengan Topik ya… saya sampai terbawa OOT…

Apa hubungannya Purgatory dan Otoritas Alkitab? Nanti saya bahas di Thread Purgatory saja, atau tolong Moderator (jika tidak keberatan) bisa dipindah mulai Posting #16 s/d #35.

Best Regard,
Daniel FS